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css vs tables: round I.      1. benefits to css     2. is full css faster     3. Return on Investment     4. Long Run Maintenance     5. w3c standards are useless     6. structure and content    css vs tables round II.      7. point:         tables are for        tabular data...      counter point:        yes, but tables        make up        databases.        Duhhh!!!     8. Hey Stupid     9. Bandwidth Savings     10. accessibility and      $4000 wheelchair      ramps     11. Spend Time Learning     12. Captured CSS Flagship     13. Selling your product     14. May work well     15. Standards Merry Go Round     16. Extremists Update          Last Updated: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 18:09   The CSS-P Extremist Update: It seems a lot of people are really UPSET at this itsy-bitsy web page. Well, I guess, if you had been brainwashed for the last 8 to 10 years or so on the absolute superiority of CSS over table tags (e.g. sort of like the Nazis who thought they were the superior race) only to watch it crumbling down with just one (1) little unknown web page article, I guess you would be upset as well. (especially considering there are at least a thousand or more well established elitist-type CSS-P books, websites, authors, gurus, and who knows what out there) Plus, one should not forget to mention that they spent all that time redesigning their website without tables only to figure out that in order to get any of that neat stuff like, catalogs, forums, search results, product lists, address books, etc. you got to have tabular data,.i.e. TABLES. Oh, well, I guess some people will be in the DENIAL stage longer than others..And based upon all of of the comments out there, some elitists are still in the SHOCK and HYSTERIA stage. For example: "you're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid, and that's all I have got to say and I still can't think of a single good reason, argument or point." That is, I will take things out of context and refuse to read the entire paragraph because I know they have a counter point to my first reaction but I'm too much in shock and scared to read anymore cause I know it's in the next sentence and I will pretend to say I read the whole article but cleverly forget that other point that was made when I can't respond to this article. BLAH!! BLAH!!! BLAH!!!! This is not to mention, "Do you know how many days, weeks, months I spent on this CSS-P? It would be an instant nighmare if we admitted our mistakes and I could care less if I have to constantly live through a different nightware with each new browser version for each browser out there. I mean, that's what alcohol and drugs are for. To deny and forget the problems you make in the past." THE TIDE IS TURNING 70+ (and counting) web sites/pages that specifically note the hazards of CSS-P only layouts versus a table / css hybrid (you would have never found this much stuff in early 2003) Why CSS should not be used for layout - Feb 2, 2009 CSS is really cool. It is useful for a lot of things. The basic idea of separating content from presentation is sound. But when it comes to layout, the design of CSS is fundamentally flawed. Use tables instead. CSS and the meaning of life - Feb 2, 2009 Why mince words? I confess, I am not a CSS expert. I all but admitted as much in my piece, which is why I based my example on code that was not written by me, but by someone who holds themselves out as being a CSS expert. Maybe I'm so idiotic that I can't even tell a real expert from a snake oil salesman. But I submit that whatever the case, I am an very good company. The mere fact that the CSS wars have gone on for as long as they have is ample evidence that there are a lot of people out there who do not find CSS a model of intuitive clarity. Microsoft madness and IE 8 - Feb 13, 2009 Gaaaaaaaaahhhhh! There must be something in the drinking water in Redmond. Presently I test in IE versions 6 and 7, and also test without a DOCTYPE to put those browsers into quirks mode (to emulate visitors from Google cache). Now comes IE 8 to add to the mix. IE 8 has not just two modes, but - count 'em - three. There's standards mode and quirks mode, just as with IE 6 and 7. But they encourage visitors to switch to "Compatibility view" - ostensibly to emulate the buggy IE 7 behavior. But this mode is not the same behavior as IE 7, according to this post from isolani.co.uk. Double your testing time estimates, folks. Google Search on David Emberton web standards - This is search on the snippets of the below article as the origina article at apcmag.com is not there any more. But it did attract a lot of anti blog postings and it was of the most FUNNIEST! (Maybe someone can ask David Emberton to repost it.) The World Wide Web is not enough - just as funny - David Emberton Web standards. They're big, dumb, and they don't work. Yet, they persist. Why? Opera study: only 4.13% of the web is standards-compliant The Web is fragmented, complex and always evolving. By Ryan Paul - Ars Techna - October 15, 2008 CSS and Tables; The war continues - the comments are insightfull Ajaxian - November 13, 2008 Give Up and Use Tables - Site totally devoted to tables, challenges CSS November 13, 2008 Why not tables? Is CSS really better? - each have their drawback, but tables can provide a perfectly flexible and fast website August 23, 2007 - Ten reasons why CSS sucks Even though there is a "standard" and some browsers partially adhere to the standard to truly be a useful standard you need two things: Predictability and Consistency. CSS has neither. Greg's head - September 25, 2006 CSS Repeats Itself - CSS has a noble goal: separating content from presentation. The sad truth, though, is that the implementation of that goal is unbelievably hideous.- September 25th, 2006 Why CSS Bugs Me The first problem is the idea of "cascading." It means what it says: falling—as in falling apart. PC Magazine - 07.12.06 - John C. Dvorak User Centered Manifesto - October 10th, 2005 ..."All development regardless of CSS, Flash, DHTML, Perl, yadda, yadda will always think of the needs of the user first before any other agenda." MIcrosoft thinks CSS2 is a flawed standard and will not be fully implementing it in IE7 eWeek's Microsoft Watch - Wednesday, March 16, 2005 SlashDot Comments on IE7's CSS2 support slashdot - Saturday March 19, @02:19PM The standard is what the majority uses. Not what some "I wanna make it harder so I can look like the head cheese fruitcake..." - June 21, 2005 (Original Thread) If I'm joe-sixpack I don't give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance - SlashDot - Saturday March 19, @02:22PM These are things that matter to the end user. If I'm joe-sixpack I don't give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance. Hell, I probably don't even know what CSS 2.0 is. The only person who actually cares are the people making the web-sites, and those people are us and in terms of market share we typically sit at the one-percent noise level... Very Insightful Strategy by Microsoft to NOT be CSS2 compliant - SlashDot Saturday March 19, @02:24PM Actually, this may help MS more than you would think. Sites will continue to be written for a non-standards-compliant browser, which makes them less likely to render correctly in the browsers that do follow standards. If enough pages render incorrectly when somebody is trying out Firefox or some other standards compliant browser, they'll give up and go back to IE. ....Next time around, I'll be going back to tables. - April 23, 2005 When I re-designed Nuketown last year, I went to a CSS-only layout and I regret it; [Link not accessible due to password, sorry]. -->Web Standards wear No Clothes - November 11, 2005 Despite all the noise they make about a semantic web, I don't think people who believe tables are evil have content as their primary concern. ....... Real designers think in grids, not slabs of concrete. I'm all for making the web accessible, extensible, and defensible, but I don't see where replacing nested table tags with nested div tags is an improvement. The hacks involved in doing something like building a simple footer in CSS are so numerous and ugly that from this alone one must suspect that those who suggest these methods in lieu of a single table have something different on their agenda, an emotional investment in an idealized final solution formed independently of the way the real world works. Their arguments about saving file size and bandwidth are equally inane. We should optimize our tools for the way we operate, not the way we imagine we might be helping out the Apache kernel or the Unix file system. [German only] - Using Tables to Layout Forms - November 5, 2004 While there are many great ways to build forms using pure XHTML and CSS without any tables, many forms are much more complex than what this method allows. I firmly believe that there is a place in forms layout for using tables intelligently for several reasons. The Rare Case for CSS Positioning - July 8, 2004 Some would say that CSS and HTML are decoupled, pointing out sites like the CSS Zen Garden. If you can replace the CSS to get a completely different layout, then CSS and HTML must be decoupled. To me, that's like saying a human heart is a standard interchangeable part… after all, if I find one of the right size and blood type, a group of skilled surgeons can replace the human heart in only 12 hours. [Page no longer available] - View from Up Here (Jan 28, 2004) Winner: Tables for site layout Loser: CSS for site layout Have you SEEN what that sh** looks like in a non-IE browser? F***, I wish I had those hours of my life back. Screw you, W3C, I‘m sticking to tables. At least I can get things to line up with ‘em. The author tried to convert site to CSS on Dec. 18 2003 - [page no longer available] Cascading Style-Sheets Suck (Sep. 1, 2003) I loathe CSS with a passion. Correction. I loathe the fact that every web browser supports a different, incompatible subset of CSS2. W3C standards were supposed to save us from having to test pages in every single browser under the sun Mental Discharge: Tables vs. CSS (12-15-2003 ) Tables and CSS both have their places, to each their own. However, anyone who gets all bent out of shape over people using layout tables instead of CSS needs a kick in the face, like the f****** W3C needs a kick in the face. "HERE IS THE STANDARD, BUT WE CANNOT ENFORCE IT, AND EVEN IF WE COULD, NO BROWSERS ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS WE CREATE, BUT YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY - Yuuki Aiba [Link no longer accessible] - CSS: Table vs CSS layouts - .net - UK's Favorite Internet Magazine by Sean Conran (April 2004) This month, discusses the pros and cons of using a CSS-only page layout instead of HTML tables. . It is often the case that trying to achieve visual consistency in CSS styling across browsers can be a real headache. At least we can rely on table structures to be far more consistent in their display across browsers, old and new. " Layout tables considered valuable" - Barry Pearson "Reflections on CSS Positioning" - Barry Pearson And CSS continues to suck... CSS Sucks Bollocks - April 01, 2005 Are you using Tables or CSS-P (Positioning Cascading Style Sheets) for your web page layouts? CSS Hacks Suck CSS is hard - many good points are made , also funny CSS is BS - funny Brad Sucks - "I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts." CodeBitch - CSS sucks CSS doesn't work anywhere any way consistently so why bother pushing its use? Point what doesn't work, tell web browser companies what they are doing wrong and beg/plead/demand they fix it. Okay...CSS sucks...well, browsers do, anyway... I spent the entire weekend wasting my time trying to get a CSS-based three-panel layout to work properly. I finally digressed to a two-panel layout, and now it looks okay in IE and sucks in Mozilla Firebird. If you people would follow the standards, this would be easy!!!!!! Grr.... Am I the only one that thinks CSS sucks? - You just need to know the limitations with regard to the browsers that you support. It's best to consult some of the many CSS compatibility charts out there. css rendering simply sucks in existing browsers :( by Stas Bekman ....the whole layout goes kaput. CSS Sucks - The David Channel CSS vs Old School Pages - I always use a hybrid of old school tables with an external stylesheet. It's the only way to fly. Pure css sucks at table simulations for good cross browser compatibility. Real tables work so well cross browser, its spooky (only thing that *does* work equally!) It's understandable why Brett does it that way. - amznVibe Oct 2003 CSS - It's not as cool as some people make it out to be. After delving deep into CSS design and learning all the ins and outs - I don't get why people are trying to use CSS instead of tables. I know a bunch of people will jump on here and post all the "benefits" of using css, but the benefits just don't outweigh the hassle you go through trying to get your layout to work. I'm sick of CSS - All this stupid box model hacks and quirks with the browers is getting very annoying. So much so, I have reverted to tables with a little CSS for a site I'm working on. WHy? Because tables just work! ...and using a combination of tables and css. You'll be much happier If using CSS doesn't simplify your work, then you need to simplify how you're using CSS, even if that means (shudder) using tables for your layout - May 13, 2004 Purists, please read. January 2, 2005 The following text appeals strongly to me. My sites actually are compliant with all the important browsers. The Future of CSS and the end of 3.0 - Aug 19, 2007 We have all been frustrated with CSS over the years. The implementation has been spotty across the browsers, and it has all but died off. IE 7 stepped up and fixed a lot, even if some weren't happy with how far they got. CSS 3 has been out there for quite some time, but apart from Opera, other browsers have selectively implemented their pet features. Some have done interesting non-standard work too: -mypetfeature-foo-bar. CSS Wont Drink Me Under The TABLE - July 18, 2004 ...Just don't ask me to throw out the baby tables with the CSS bathwater. Nah gonna do it. CSS Considered Unstylish - or why CSS sucks - December 14, 2004 Tables My A** - Tables takes me a few minutes; CSS takes me easily 10 times as long - May 14, 2004 I am an extremist CSS fanatic mike d said: Which is probably why your website is so damn ugly. css and standards design fascism is like telling all artists to use only a certain type of paint; a musician that all music must be written purely for piano. A sort of web design taleban, all praise mighty Eric Meyer and death to the unbelievers, their use of tables damns them for eternity...................... July 10, 2005 Some Things Are Just Easier with Tables - May 12, 2004 ....Overstating the Benefits MSDN Channel 9 - CSS Overrated? Tables? Oh, the horror! - I am suggesting merely that in some cases, it might make sense to explore a layout table. Again, I do not mean three-level-deep nested tables rife with the required colspans. I mean a light table with two or three columns to keep a layout together, sans all other presentational markup.- May 15, 2004 "On Table-based design… I’ve seen that design in every browser I can, under Linux, Windows and Macintosh platforms, and it looks practically the same. It’s rock solid. Score one for the tables." - May 27, 2004 ...and in my experience I have found that carefully using tables produces more cross browser compatible designs than using divs carefull - June 2004 I’ve been working on a very slight redesign and thorough rewrite of this website. I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts. - April 2004 CSS is moribund - November 2004 CSS hacks are starting to break - His message is that CSS hacks will start to break in IE 7, and I fully agree. - quicksmode.org - September 2005 IEBlog - Microsoft - CSS hacks that work in IE6 will not work in IE7 Be prepared for a lot of frustration! - I personally use a hybrid of table/css; - July 2005 Highlight of these pages Tables vs CSS - May 7, 2006 I've wasted about 4 hours trying to be anti-Table and use CSS-P (CSS for div tags and layout) and have just gotten extremely frustrated - not because I've had to learn CSS for the 4th time in 3 years, but because of the browser compatibility issues. [link no long available] - CSS fans, **cough cough** W3C....believe that CSS is the answer to everything. The fact is that load on the browser is not truly affected by tables or css positioning - April 03, 2006 Still the tide is turning.... Web Standards wear no cloths November 11, 2004 Stop Hacking, or be Stopped - April 23, 2006 And the problem will amplify over time, as more incremental updates are released, and the browser share fragments. In one sense this won't be 1998 all over again with its 85 different versions of Netscape 4, thanks to browser auto-updating keeping most users current. But, not every user will keep up to date. I can't count how many times I ignore the update nag message on my own machine, so they can hardly be blamed. DIV VS Tables - Mar 17, 2009 Forum discussion on Div VS Tables, Pros and cons of both IE8 rendering problems - browser fault or genuine CSS fault? - May 28, 2008 Everything You Know About CSS Is Wrong - Book Review - Feb 3, 2009 That can’t be true, everything I know about CSS is wrong? Lies! Sitepoint.com it is all lies! Well maybe not all lies but I guess you would have to read the book to find out and thus I will give a review about what this book is about and see if the title of this book is correct or not. IE8 and Wordpress - Mar 19, 2009 Well, IE8 must be standards compliant, because all of the hacks I wrote for Internet Explorer make my pages look like sh*t now. Make sure all of your IE conditional tags say "if IE7 or lower" or else your page will look stupid. For instance, due to IE7's lack of support for :after, I had a really messy hack to put ellipses at the end of truncated content. Now IE8 displays two sets of ellipses - one for standards-compliant browsers, and one for my IE hack. Being Microsoft software, it will inevitably have a swarm of bugs, security holes, and code bloat, so I'm going to keep using Firefox. However, IE8 is theoretically nicer to developers and fully supports CSS 2.1. Opera chief: Microsoft's IE 8 ‘undermines’ web standards - Mar 17, 2009 Opera Software chief executive Jon von Tetzchner told The Reg that while Microsoft is headed in the right direction, IE continues to undermine open standards on the web. The fundamental problem is Microsoft's decision to allow users to continue to view billions of old pages optimized for non-compliant IE 6 and 7 that would otherwise be scrambled in IE 8. Microsoft to Release IE8 Today - Mar 20, 2009 I'm afraid as a web designer I’ll now have to code for IE6, IE7 and now IE8. What a mess. Why can’t we all just use Firefox and forget it. But then I'd be out of a job. ;-) Some time ago when the CSS vs Tables wars were heating up, again.... Well, just browsing around, looks like the css tables bandwidth argument isn't being made anymore. That is, at least it wasn't the first point made during an argument. But there is someone trying to save face by doing an un-realistic R.O.I. on tables vs. css tables. Basically, it was assumed that the text editor, Notepad, was being used and forgot about using templates (Dreamweaver, Adobe GoLive, Frontpage, VS Studio. etc.) when they started to count hours. You can read about it here or here. Laissez les bon temps rouler! As for Tables, it's Laissez les bon temps rouler! (that's Cajun for "Let the good times roll", It's pronounced, "lay-zay lay bon ton rule-ay"! if you made it this far, you might be interested in Matrix Hamster Power (about the movie, The Matrix)

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