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css vs tables: round I.      1. benefits to css     2. is full css faster     3. Return on Investment     4. Long Run Maintenance     5. w3c standards are useless     6. structure and content    css vs tables round II.      7. point:         tables are for        tabular data...      counter point:        yes, but tables        make up        databases.        Duhhh!!!     8. Hey Stupid     9. Bandwidth Savings     10. accessibility and      $4000 wheelchair      ramps     11. Spend Time Learning     12. Captured CSS Flagship     13. Selling your product     14. May work well     15. Standards Merry Go Round     16. Extremists Update          Last Updated: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:01   Extremist Update: It seems a lot of people are really UPSET at this itsy-bitsy web page. Well, I guess, if you had been brainwashed for the last 3 to 4 years or so on the absolute superiority of CSS over table tags (e.g. sort of like the Nazis who thought they were the superior race) only to watch it crumbling down with just one (1) little unknown web page article, I guess you would be upset as well. (especially considering there are at least a thousand or more well established elitist-type CSS-P books, websites, authors, gurus, and who knows what out there) Plus, one should not forget to mention that they spent all that time redesigning their website without tables only to figure out that in order to get any of that neat stuff like, catalogs, forums, search results, product lists, address books, etc. you got to have tabular data,.i.e. TABLES. Oh, well, I guess some people will be in the DENIAL stage longer than others..And based upon all of of the comments out there, some elitists are still in the SHOCK and HYSTERIA stage (e.g. you're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid, and that's all I have got to say and I still can't think of a single good reason, argument or point. That is, I will take things out of context and refuse to read the entire paragraph because I know they have a counter point to my first reaction but I'm too much in shock and scared to read anymore cause I know it's in the next sentence and I will pretend to say I read the whole article but cleverly forget that other point that was made when I respond to this article. BLAH!! BLAH!!! BLAH!!!!). Update...again. Well, just browsing around, looks like the css tables bandwidth argument isn't being made anymore. That is, at least it wasn't the first point made during an argument. But there is someone trying to save face by doing an un-realistic R.O.I. on tables vs. css tables. Basically it was assumed that the text editor, Notepad, was being used and forgot about using templates (Dreamweaver, Adobe GoLive, Frontpage, etc.) when they started to count hours. You can read about it here. THE TIDE IS TURNING 60+ (and counting) web sites/pages that specifically note the hazards of CSS-P only layouts versus a table / css hybrid (you would have never found this much stuff in early 2003) The World Wide Web is not enough - just as funny - David Emberton Web standards. They're big, dumb, and they don't work. Yet, they persist. Why? Ten reasons why CSS sucks Even though there is a "standard" and some browsers partially adhere to the standard to truly be a useful standard you need two things: Predictability and Consistency. CSS has neither. Greg's head - September 25, 2006 Why CSS Bugs Me The first problem is the idea of "cascading." It means what it says: falling—as in falling apart. PC Magazine - 07.12.06 - John C. Dvorak User Centered Manifesto - October 10th, 2005 ..."All development regardless of CSS, Flash, DHTML, Perl, yadda, yadda will always think of the needs of the user first before any other agenda." MIcrosoft thinks CSS2 is a flawed standard and will not be fully implementing it in IE7 eWeek's Microsoft Watch - Wednesday, March 16, 2005 SlashDot Comments on IE7's CSS2 support slashdot - Saturday March 19, @02:19PM The standard is what the majority uses. Not what some "I wanna make it harder so I can look like the head cheese fruitcake..." - June 21, 2005 If I'm joe-sixpack I don't give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance - SlashDot - Saturday March 19, @02:22PM These are things that matter to the end user. If I'm joe-sixpack I don't give a damn about CSS 2.0 compliance. Hell, I probably don't even know what CSS 2.0 is. The only person who actually cares are the people making the web-sites, and those people are us and in terms of market share we typically sit at the one-percent noise level... Very Insightful Strategy by Microsoft to NOT be CSS2 compliant - SlashDot Saturday March 19, @02:24PM Actually, this may help MS more than you would think. Sites will continue to be written for a non-standards-compliant browser, which makes them less likely to render correctly in the browsers that do follow standards. If enough pages render incorrectly when somebody is trying out Firefox or some other standards compliant browser, they'll give up and go back to IE. ....Next time around, I'll be going back to tables. - April 23, 2005 When I re-designed Nuketown last year, I went to a CSS-only layout and I regret it; Web Standards wear No Clothes - November 11, 2005 Despite all the noise they make about a semantic web, I don't think people who believe tables are evil have content as their primary concern. ....... Real designers think in grids, not slabs of concrete. I'm all for making the web accessible, extensible, and defensible, but I don't see where replacing nested table tags with nested div tags is an improvement. Using Tables to Layout Forms - November 5, 2004 While there are many great ways to build forms using pure XHTML and CSS without any tables, many forms are much more complex than what this method allows. I firmly believe that there is a place in forms layout for using tables intelligently for several reasons. The Rare Case for CSS Positioning - July 8, 2004 Some would say that CSS and HTML are decoupled, pointing out sites like the CSS Zen Garden. If you can replace the CSS to get a completely different layout, then CSS and HTML must be decoupled. To me, that's like saying a human heart is a standard interchangeable part… after all, if I find one of the right size and blood type, a group of skilled surgeons can replace the human heart in only 12 hours. View from Up Here (Jan 28, 2004) Winner: Tables for site layout Loser: CSS for site layout Have you SEEN what that sh** looks like in a non-IE browser? F***, I wish I had those hours of my life back. Screw you, W3C, I‘m sticking to tables. At least I can get things to line up with ‘em. The author tried to convert site to CSS on Dec. 18 2003 Cascading Style-Sheets Suck (Sep. 1, 2003) I loathe CSS with a passion. Correction. I loathe the fact that every web browser supports a different, incompatible subset of CSS2. W3C standards were supposed to save us from having to test pages in every single browser under the sun Mental Discharge: Tables vs. CSS (12-15-2003 ) Tables and CSS both have their places, to each their own. However, anyone who gets all bent out of shape over people using layout tables instead of CSS needs a kick in the face, like the f****** W3C needs a kick in the face. "HERE IS THE STANDARD, BUT WE CANNOT ENFORCE IT, AND EVEN IF WE COULD, NO BROWSERS ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS WE CREATE, BUT YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY - Yuuki Aiba CSS: Table vs CSS layouts - .net - UK's Favorite Internet Magazine by Sean Conran (April 2004) This month, discusses the pros and cons of using a CSS-only page layout instead of HTML tables. . It is often the case that trying to achieve visual consistency in CSS styling across browsers can be a real headache. At least we can rely on table structures to be far more consistent in their display across browsers, old and new. Tables vs. Full CSS Integration - November 24, 2003 The one large grain of salt here is the fact that they are trying to sell their product, but still, even with that, these 15 points are worth reading and thinking about. " Layout tables considered valuable" "Reflections on CSS Positioning" And CSS continues to suck... CSS Sucks Bollocks - April 01, 2005 Are you using Tables or CSS-P (Positioning Cascading Style Sheets) for your web page layouts? CSS Hacks Suck css? tables? as long as it works - February 06, 2004 laughinggiraffe.co.uk CSS is hard - many good points are made , also funny CSS is BS - funny Brad Sucks - "I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts." CodeBitch - CSS sucks CSS doesn't work anywhere any way consistently so why bother pushing its use? Point what doesn't work, tell web browser companies what they are doing wrong and beg/plead/demand they fix it. Okay...CSS sucks...well, browsers do, anyway... I spent the entire weekend wasting my time trying to get a CSS-based three-panel layout to work properly. I finally digressed to a two-panel layout, and now it looks okay in IE and sucks in Mozilla Firebird. If you people would follow the standards, this would be easy!!!!!! Grr.... CSS Sucks Why do we have to keep resorting to nasty hacks or server-side scripting just to get pages looking the same in all browsers? Am I the only one that thinks CSS sucks? - You just need to know the limitations with regard to the browsers that you support. It's best to consult some of the many CSS compatibility charts out there. CSS disadvantages - Fall 2004 css rendering simply sucks in existing browsers :( by Stas Bekman ....the whole layout goes kaput. CSS Sucks - The David Channel CSS vs Old School Pages - I always use a hybrid of old school tables with an external stylesheet. It's the only way to fly. Pure css sucks at table simulations for good cross browser compatibility. Real tables work so well cross browser, its spooky (only thing that *does* work equally!) It's understandable why Brett does it that way. - amznVibe Oct 2003 CSS - It's not as cool as some people make it out to be. After delving deep into CSS design and learning all the ins and outs - I don't get why people are trying to use CSS instead of tables. I know a bunch of people will jump on here and post all the "benefits" of using css, but the benefits just don't outweigh the hassle you go through trying to get your layout to work. I'm sick of CSS - All this stupid box model hacks and quirks with the browers is getting very annoying. So much so, I have reverted to tables with a little CSS for a site I'm working on. WHy? Because tables just work! ...and using a combination of tables and css. You'll be much happier If using CSS doesn't simplify your work, then you need to simplify how you're using CSS, even if that means (shudder) using tables for your layout - May 13, 2004 Purists, please read. January 2, 2005 The following text appeals strongly to me. My sites actually are compliant with all the important browsers. CSS Wont Drink Me Under The TABLE - July 18, 2004 ...Just don't ask me to throw out the baby tables with the CSS bathwater. Nah gonna do it. CSS Considered Unstylish - or why CSS sucks - December 14, 2004 Tables My A** - Tables takes me a few minutes; CSS takes me easily 10 times as long - May 14, 2004 CSS vs Tables, fscking browsers - May 25, 2005 I am an extremist CSS fanatic mike d said: Which is probably why your website is so damn ugly. css and standards design fascism is like telling all artists to use only a certain type of paint; a musician that all music must be written purely for piano. A sort of web design taleban, all praise mighty Eric Meyer and death to the unbelievers, their use of tables damns them for eternity...................... July 10, 2005 Some Things Are Just Easier with Tables - May 12, 2004 ....Overstating the Benefits CSS vs. Tables - CSS Overrated? - May 14, 2004 Tables? Oh, the horror! - I am suggesting merely that in some cases, it might make sense to explore a layout table. Again, I do not mean three-level-deep nested tables rife with the required colspans. I mean a light table with two or three columns to keep a layout together, sans all other presentational markup.- May 15, 2004 "On Table-based design… I’ve seen that design in every browser I can, under Linux, Windows and Macintosh platforms, and it looks practically the same. It’s rock solid. Score one for the tables." - May 27, 2004 ...and in my experience I have found that carefully using tables produces more cross browser compatible designs than using divs carefull - June 2004 I’ve been working on a very slight redesign and thorough rewrite of this website. I pretty much want to kick whoever invented CSS in the nuts. - April 2004 CSS is moribund - November 2004 CSS hacks are starting to break - His message is that CSS hacks will start to break in IE 7, and I fully agree. - quicksmode.org - September 2005 IEBlog - Microsoft - CSS hacks that work in IE6 will not work in IE7 Be prepared for a lot of frustration! - I personally use a hybrid of table/css; - July 2005 Return of Design - June 18, 2005 Powerful stuff, to be sure.... Tables vs CSS - May 7, 2006 I’ve wasted about 4 hours trying to be anti-Table and use CSS-P (CSS for div tags and layout) and have just gotten extremely frustrated — not because I’ve had to learn CSS for the 4th time in 3 years, but because of the browser compatibility issues. CSS fans, **cough cough** W3C....believe that CSS is the answer to everything. The fact is that load on the browser is not truly affected by tables or css positioning - April 03, 2006 Still the tide is turning.... Web Standards wear no cloths November 11, 2004 The hacks involved in doing something like building a simple footer in CSS are so numerous and ugly that from this alone one must suspect that those who suggest these methods in lieu of a single table have something different on their agenda, an emotional investment in an idealized final solution formed independently of the way the real world works. Their arguments about saving file size and bandwidth are equally inane. We should optimize our tools for the way we operate, not the way we imagine we might be helping out the Apache kernel or the Unix file system. Stop Hacking, or be Stopped - April 23, 2006 And the problem will amplify over time, as more incremental updates are released, and the browser share fragments. In one sense this won’t be 1998 all over again with its 85 different versions of Netscape 4, thanks to browser auto-updating keeping most users current. But, not every user will keep up to date. I can’t count how many times I ignore the update nag message on my own machine, so they can hardly be blamed. Laissez les bon temps rouler! As for Tables, it's Laissez les bon temps rouler! (that's Cajun for "Let the good times roll", It's pronounced, "lay-zay lay bon ton rule-ay"! if you made it this far, you might be interested in Matrix Hamster Power (about the movie, The Matrix)

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